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World's largest solar plant slated for Gila Bend

The “world’s largest solar plant” planned near Gila Bend will receive a $1.45 billion loan guarantee, President Obama announced Saturday. “This plant will be the first large-scale solar plant in the U.S. to actually store the energy it generates for later use – even at night,” he said.... Read more»

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19 comments on this story

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1
19 comments
Jul 3, 2010, 5:58 am
-0 +1

This is great news. Arizona solar energy could power the nation. Keep up the good work, Gabrielle Giffords!

2
1 comments
Jul 3, 2010, 10:09 am
-0 +0

This is not only great news for the environment but   an absolute boon the the economy of Arizona. Using most of the 1.45 billion here in AZ and calculating even a modest multiplier effect bodes well for all of us. Kudos to Ms. Giffords, the Obama administration, APS and to a great company, Abengoa.

3
11 comments
Jul 3, 2010, 12:23 pm
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Part 3 of 3

Germany learned an important lesson on renewable energy subsidies. The economic and environmental failure of their subsidy programs could, and should, be a warning for us.  Here is an excerpt from a recent German paper:

We argue that German renewable energy policy, and in particular the adopted feed-in tariff scheme, has failed to harness the market incentives needed to ensure a viable and cost-effective introduction of renewable energies into the country’s energy portfolio. To the contrary, the government’s support mechanisms have in many respects subverted these incentives, resulting in massive expenditures that show little long-term promise for stimulating the economy, protecting the environment, or increasing energy security.

The full paper can be read here: 

http://www.instituteforenergypolicy.com/documents/renewable_energy_report_rwi.pdf

Even if you find this all hard to believe, at least demand that political leaders demonstrate (using independent third parties) the full economic cost and benefits of these projects. Then we, and they, can make wise choices.

If we are truly concerned about energy security, our economy, environment, and the welfare of future generations, the clear path today is conservation of natural resources, best accomplished by reduced personal consumption.  This will buy time till better, more viable alternatives are ready.

-Joe Solar

4
11 comments
Jul 3, 2010, 12:25 pm
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Part 1 of 3

The increased taxes we will all pay to fund these pet projects of Gabrielle will further damage our national and state economy and burden future generations with an ever increasing debt load.  Solar is way too expensive to be a viable energy supply at this time.  She is marching us head long toward financial disaster.  She is buying votes at tremendous expense to the balance of society.

I am an engineer/entrepreneur that started and runs a renewable energy company in Arizona.  I employ Arizonans, manufacture in the US, and export products internationally.  We bring millions into the AZ economy each year.  But my business model is not based on lobbying efforts to force taxpayers to buy my products, as the solar lobby does.  We are a successful free-market solar products manufacturer.  It pains me deeply to see politicians misusing the potential benefits of solar for their political agenda.

These articles always talk about the benefits of solar but rarely are honest enough to discuss cost.  Exactly how much will this plant cost?  What is the real value of the energy it will produce?  These are very basic questions Gabrielle either can’t or won’t answer.

5
11 comments
Jul 3, 2010, 12:26 pm
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Part 2 of 3

But perhaps the most egregious falsehood in these articles is the claim of job creation.  Make no mistake, we pay for these large negative net present value projects; it is not manna from heaven.  It is money that comes out of the pockets of tax and ratepayers.  This reduces our spending ability, and we buy less.  This causes job losses, reduced hours, and pay cuts in the general economy. 

The sinister thing about this political maneuver is that the job losses to the general economy are diffuse and hard to see, but the job gains in the solar industry can be counted.  So many people, including Gabrielle Giffords, sincerely believe these subsidies are helping create jobs, but this is false.  She is merely moving people from productive “free-market” jobs to artificial, non-productive solar jobs.  I say non-productive, because the net present value (NPV) of this solar activity is very low compared to the NPV of free-market business activities.  Free markets cannot waste money in non-productive activities (which is a great thing), but the government can continue to waste money in non-productive ventures as long as we allow it. 

The key here is to recognize the diffuse job losses across the economy which are hard to number, but just as real as the ones we can count at the new solar companies.  In effect, we are moving people from productive jobs to non-productive jobs and our economic output will be reduced.  These solar jobs are completely artificial and the moment the subsidies end, the vast majority of the industry will disappear immediately.  Our solar bubble will burst faster than the housing bubble.

6
19 comments
Jul 4, 2010, 6:04 am
-0 +0

“This is due to the fact that Germany’s electricity production from renewable technologies mitigates the need for emission reductions in other countries that participate in the ETS regime, thereby significantly lowering CO2 certificate prices by 15% relative to the situation without EEG (Traber, Kemfert 2009:169). In essence, this permit price effect would lead to an emission level that would be higher than otherwise if it were not outweighed by the substitution effect, that is, the crowding out of conventional electricity production through CO2-free green technologies.”

This is a quote from the German study, which is well worth reviewing, and for that I thank you, Joe Solar ( I assume you are a proponent of solar, with reservations about large scale development of the technology.)  But the reality is, if we are going to move away from fossil fuels, and we are, it isn’t going to happen overnight, and I think most of us are realistic about that. What is happening is uneven development of the advanced technology, a price reduction for the old technology, which permits less-advanced countries to take advantage of energy development, using the old technology. There are still parts of the world that use buggy whips, too.

I am not willing to give up use or support of the creation of solar and other alternative energy sources (my home is solar powered), just because it will take too long to make the conversion. I agree that we can all do more conservation, and I think decentralized power generation is a better solution (a solar panel on every house!) than power plants such as the Gila Bend plant. But if solar proponents are not going to be undercut by lobbyists for big coal and petrol powered plants, there has to be a bone thrown at them, don’t you think? Because the population continues to grow, and we must have electricity, and given the choice between solar and oil or nuclear, I’d rather have solar.

Thank you for the reference, however.

7
11 comments
Jul 4, 2010, 8:29 am
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1 of 2

I agree with your general point that the solar subsidies reduce the cost of carbon credits, but the more important question is “at what cost?”  Are there less expensive ways to mitigate CO2?  If so, we can mitigate more CO2 with less money via other technologies.  The answer to this question is that solar technologies are an extremely expensive way to buy carbon credits.

From the same German report:

There are much cheaper ways to reduce carbon dioxide emissions than subsidizing renewable energies. CO2 abatement costs of PV are estimated to be as high as US $1,050 per ton, while those of wind power are estimated at US $80 per ton. By contrast, the current price of emissions certificates on the European emissions trading scheme is only $20 per ton. Hence, the cost from emission reductions as determined by the market is about 53 times cheaper than employing PV and 4 times cheaper than using wind power.


The conclusion of this and other reports is the same; if we are concerned about CO2, then installing solar panels is a waste of money.  So claims of CO2 mitigation as a key benefit of solar PV is disingenuous.  It took me a while to figure this out, but the solar industry is not at all interested in cost effective CO2 reduction, but they profit from maintaining this myth in the general public.

8
11 comments
Jul 4, 2010, 8:32 am
-1 +0

2 of 2

I understand your desire to promote solar.  But it is a very different thing for someone to personally devote their time and efforts to developing alternative energies (as I do) and persons who simply want everyone else to pay the majority of the cost of their PV system via taxes and utility fees, which is the case today.  Your system produces very expensive power and your bill might actually be lower than before you had a PV system.  But don’t be fooled, the cost of your electricity is much higher now, and you have just pushed the real costs on to your neighbors. 

I do not blame you, you are responding rationally to the artificial market created by the Arizona Corporation Commission.  But sadly, the same funds could have saved more CO2, created more energy independence, and helped our economy more had they been used to fund economically viable energy conservation measures.  But as long as the solar lobby is successful at making the general public believe we are using the money wisely, we won’t.

As politically unpopular as it may be, I think we need to stop all energy subsidies except basic R&D and simply tax the negative externalities of fossil fuel use.  Then the market will arrive at the optimal solutions, and I’m very sure it will not be grid-tied solar PV.  If I’m right, then we are wasting hundreds of millions in AZ alone and billions at the national level.

I also do not think you need to worry about how fast the market will respond.  I think it will be fast enough but more importantly, it will be the right response!

9
19 comments
Jul 4, 2010, 1:36 pm
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You and your faith in the free market, hmm. I wish I could believe, but I don’t. The current politics of this country will not support the taxation of “negative externalities” (which you forgot to add, would also be passed on to the consumer, with no benefit attached. Just more of the same.) Just look at the response to the disaster in the Gulf of Mexico. Do you see an outpouring of demand for a massive fine on BP? There has actually been sympathy expressed for BP!

Mass market energy production has always been subsidized; that’s how rural America got electrified. As we reach the era of new energy needs, and peak oil, the question is, what will it be? Clean coal? Nuclear? Damming every river on the planet? Research and development take money; deciding who will get the money depends on results. We are already seeing new full scale prototype PV panels with 24% efficiency, up from 17%. That is the result of research and development, encouraged by the strength of the current support for solar.
See http://investors.sunpowercorp.com/releasedetail.cfm?elq_mid=65&elq_cid=91212&ReleaseID=482133&elq=01966f6ea3b2463aa02d679bd4d1d57a

I wish you would say what you think is the downside to solar, or wind, besides “the initial investment is too great,” because I would rather invest in solar and wind, than try to contain another Chernobyl, or clean up another Gulf of Mexico, or to watch ancient cities drown.  At what cost, indeed!

10
172 comments
Jul 4, 2010, 1:57 pm
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Congratulations to Dylan Smith and The Tucson Sentinel for the SCOOP on this news story. Thank you for quality free press on this Fourth of July.

11
11 comments
Jul 4, 2010, 3:32 pm
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If you do not understand the economic impact of taxing externalities which would drive up fuel prices and cause consumers to substitute to alternatives, nor appreciate the extraordinary way free markets allocate resources, you should consider moving to a country where resources are allocated by the really smart government bureaucrats. 

Let me know how things turn out for you there in the former Soviet Union.  Mother Russia always knows best eh comrade? 

Perhaps you will learn a valuable lesson about markets and governments.

P.S. Yes, I know SunPower’s cell technology.  We bid it 3 weeks ago in a military system were high energy density was very important.  But we proposed using their cells on a custom flexible substraight so they could fold and be packaged tighter.  It gave us a much better packing density than the standard frames.  It turned out we could fit more than 700 kW of panels in a 20-ft shipping container using the flexible substraight arrangement.  But the requirement for batteries and inverters dominated the volume and weight limits, so we had to find the optimal balance to package the most net energy in the container.  Of course using Li, NiMH, or lead changed the packing configurations and cost per watt, so we bid all three arrangements.  Richard Swanson is in my address book, and I speak to him from time to time at solar conferences. 

This is my business.  I know the costs and I know the technologies and I know the financial limitations.  I’m just trying to prevent our state from wasting a lot of money.

12
19 comments
Jul 4, 2010, 5:18 pm
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I do understand that theoretical economic model, of course (economics degree); I just doubt that it would happen. There is tremendous incentive for existing energy producers to maintain their control of the power supply. And the “really smart government bureaucrats” that we have in this country are super susceptible to the influence of lobbyists. Just look at the recent fraud of “clean coal.” We had to put on a full court press to convince our local government that it was hogwash. Do you have any confidence that “taxation of negative externalities” would actually be enacted?  Come on. It would probably be opposed as an unnecessary burden on the free market!

I agree, however, that people need encouragement to make a change. I think that people need to see examples, and they need to believe that there is real support for a change. Therefore, if we can get the really smart government bureaucrats to invest 1.5 billion in a solar project—great! The people actually get something, and it is exciting, and innovative, and forward thinking.

You and I are idealists talking over the backyard fence. Fight the good fight…...comrade!

13
5 comments
Jul 4, 2010, 8:01 pm
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Damn, my comment was over 2000 words and it got wiped out.  OK, this time I will be short.

This is a good project.  Solar thermal appears that it may be ready to begin to be used as an actual energy source, beyond just a lab curiosity.  A prototype plant of a production scale (300 MW is pretty decent scale) is needed to assess.  This is an appropriate place for the govt to share in the risk.  Nuclear power by the way also is reliant on government involvement.  France’s highly successful nuclear power program is a government-private enterprise partnership.

Let’s see how this generator does, it will give us a lot better handle on whether solar thermal is ready for prime time.

14
5 comments
Jul 4, 2010, 8:12 pm
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By the way:

In my opinion photovoltaic is still a highly questionable technology.

Higher efficiency and lower cost are great, those are getting closer to looking viable but that is only part of the story.

Here in the Pacific Northwest in my opinion subsidies for photovoltaic panels are just welfare for the rich.  Their capacity factor is low and the output doesn’t coincide with the peak load.

Now in Arizona it might be a little better, but as I understand it peak load is in the summer due to air conditioning, and your need for air conditioning doesn’t suddenly stop when the sun is far enough toward the horizon that your photovoltaic isn’t generating much anymore.

Solar thermal makes way more sense, at least when it incorporates storage like the proposed Solana plant does.  You can still generate power into the evening when the demand remains high.

We should only develop renewables if they are going to be able to integrate into our electrical grid and provide power when we need it. 

For example, as I understand it, most wind power must be backed up nearly 100% with natural gas power plants.  The wind power allows you to shut off the natural gas generator when the wind is blowing, which saves natural gas.  However, it has been argued that the cost of the windmills exceeds what you will ever save in natural gas.  And it’s not just money, windmills require massive amounts of concrete, the production of which generates a large amount of CO2.

15
5 comments
Jul 4, 2010, 8:21 pm
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So in conclusion:

I believe before either wind or photovoltaics can contribute a major portion of our energy supply, one prerequisite is that we come up with a low-cost method of mass energy storage, one that is convertible to and from electricity with very high efficiency. (some proposed approaches are large-scale batteries or storage of compressed air in underground caverns)  There is not yet an energy storage technique that comes close to being capable of meeting this need. 

In fact, in my view the scientific and/or engineering breakthrough needed to achieve such an energy storage method is the biggest obstacle to a renewables-based energy economy.

(I endorse the government spending lots on that one, provided there are enough researchers in the field that have the competence and judgement that the money winds up producing good R&D)

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